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Post by audioslave on May 2, 2005 18:07:42 GMT 7
matagal mo nang plano yan bogs ah. regarding your question, i think avphile can shed light on that - he's the man!! ;D you might want to bring your Rotel RB-03 Power Amp next session so that we can hook it to any of the available tube pre-amps and let's hear how it may sound like.
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Post by akyatbundok on May 2, 2005 19:11:04 GMT 7
bogsle, na-try ko dati yun magkaiba ang power rating, Marantz receiver sa HF (100watts), tapos Kenwood power amp sa LF (130watts), kailangan ng volume adjustment or attenuator sa LF para pumantay, otherwise overpowering ang bass.... pag pinagpalit ko naman nagiging bright. ;D
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Post by john1977 on May 2, 2005 20:23:08 GMT 7
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Post by JojoD818 on May 2, 2005 20:45:22 GMT 7
bogsle, na-try ko dati yun magkaiba ang power rating, Marantz receiver sa HF (100watts), tapos Kenwood power amp sa LF (130watts), kailangan ng volume adjustment or attenuator sa LF para pumantay, otherwise overpowering ang bass.... pag pinagpalit ko naman nagiging bright. ;D tamang tama yan kasi yun isa yata integrated diba? so pwedeng pwede yun idea ni bogsle na bi-amp kasi may volume control yun isa sa mga amps.
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Post by john1977 on May 2, 2005 23:24:01 GMT 7
Well, he can use the two amps with an active crossover in between. He would definitely need to bypass the passive crossover of the speakers in this setup
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Post by bogsle on May 2, 2005 23:26:55 GMT 7
Bogsle, Will you be using an active crossover for that or the passive crossover built inside the speaker? JojoD Maraming salamat sa mga nag respond. Sarap naman ng ganitong samahan. Sorry bro, I do not get it. I know that the two pieces of metal at the back of the speakers are the passive crossover (tama ba yun?) that connects the pair of HF sockets with the pair of LF sockets. I would remove these, and then connect the RA-02 to the HF, while the RB-03 will be connected to the LF.
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Post by bogsle on May 2, 2005 23:33:03 GMT 7
tamang tama yan kasi yun isa yata integrated diba? so pwedeng pwede yun idea ni bogsle na bi-amp kasi may volume control yun isa sa mga amps. Yes, the RA-02 is an integrated amp with its own volume control, while the RB-03 is a power amp with no volume control. May Pre-Amp-OUT kasi yung RA-02. This will be connected to the Pre-Amp-IN of the RB-03. This is how they will be chained together. Now kahit connected na yung Pre-Amp-OUT ng RA-02 active pa rin yung built-in speaker outs nya. When one adjusts the volume on the RA-02 this affects both its own speaker outs and the RB-03 speaker outs. Since the RA-02 has its own speaker outs, I can connect it to the HF of the speaker and yung speaker out ng RB-03 will be connected to the LF of the same speaker. Ayos lang ba yon, although there is a difference in RMS Power of the RA-02 Integrated (40watts) and the RB-03 (70watts) Power Amp?
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Post by bogsle on May 2, 2005 23:49:00 GMT 7
bogsle, na-try ko dati yun magkaiba ang power rating, Marantz receiver sa HF (100watts), tapos Kenwood power amp sa LF (130watts), kailangan ng volume adjustment or attenuator sa LF para pumantay, otherwise overpowering ang bass.... pag pinagpalit ko naman nagiging bright. ;D Yes, parang ganyan nga ang setup. But would not the volume control of the Marantz receiver distribute equal volume levels coming out of its own speaker outs and those going out of the Kenwood power amp speaker outs as well?
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Post by john1977 on May 3, 2005 2:33:07 GMT 7
I would remove these, and then connect the RA-02 to the HF, while the RB-03 will be connected to the LF. by doing that its like powering each to run full range, putting an active crossover between the two amps will help you tune what frequency range each will be playing.
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Post by bogsle on May 3, 2005 4:46:14 GMT 7
by doing that its like powering each to run full range, putting an active crossover between the two amps will help you tune what frequency range each will be playing. I guess that would mean investing on another hardware - an active crossover. But isn't it that speakers with such designs as having separate ports for HF and LF would already have the crossovers built internal for separating the two signals? I think this is why some speaker brands like B&W does not recommned using active crossovers when bi-amping their speakers. I think there is a contradiction of some sorts here or maybe I'm just getting confused. In the case with Bi-Wiring, it is believed that in order to create separate signal paths for the HF and LF signals, two sets of wires are connected to the speaker from an amplifier's speaker output source. As I understand it, the rationale with this is so that each speaker port (or crossover) would become dedicated only to processing one signal type (HF or LF) and thus somehow improve sound quality. Wouldn't I be improving the scenario here by using totally separate speaker outputs from two different amplifiers going to one speaker instead of having only one signal source as in the case of bi-wiring? Moreover, it would not matter as well even if each amp is sending a full range signal to each pair of speaker terminals. This is because the signals would eventually be filtered accordingly by the speaker's internal crossover. Am I wrong? On the other hand, I am very sorry if I did not make my self clear at the beginning. My concern however is mainly is the difference in the output power of each amp that I will be using. As mentioned the RA-02 Integrated provides 40watts RMS while the RB-03 Power amp yeilds 70watts RMS. Will it be okay to do a (passive) bi-amp of my speakers even though there is an uneven source of power? BTW, the two amps will have one common volume control -- the RA-02's. Maraming salmat for the response, bro.
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Post by akyatbundok on May 3, 2005 9:14:58 GMT 7
Yes, parang ganyan nga ang setup. But would not the volume control of the Marantz receiver distribute equal volume levels coming out of its own speaker outs and those going out of the Kenwood power amp speaker outs as well? hmmmm from what i experienced the more powerful amp gave out louder volume at the same signal level.... so i needed a way to attenuate the Kenwood to the same level as the Marantz.... if the receiver had an extra adjustment for preout level my problem would have been solved, or maybe i can attach a passive attenuator to the power amp..... it seems dependent on output power & input sensitivity (?? not sure), so if the 2 amps have different specs there is probably a need for at least 2 volume controls, one to match the output of the 2 amps, and another for overall volume control...... not too sure though, i just abandoned the idea when i found the result to be unbalanced...... at first i thought WoW the bass is amazing! esp. with movies, but after listening to a few CD's, i found the bass got a little bit more power than the mids & highs (3-way speaker).
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Post by JojoD818 on May 3, 2005 9:28:47 GMT 7
bogsle,
pwede yun sinasabi mo kahit wala ng active crossover kasi meron naman passive crossover sa loob yun speakers. and tama din si john when he said na your running the HF and LF in a full range fashion, ok lang din kasi nga meron ng passive xover sa loob yun speakers.
ang medyo mind boggling na lang is yun observations ni akyat dahil mas malakas yun LF amp baka sobra sa bass?
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Post by avphile on May 3, 2005 11:51:51 GMT 7
I guess that would mean investing on another hardware - an active crossover. Absolutely. You need en electronic crossover to split the signals at the preamp level. That also means you need a suitable preamplifer for the RB-03 so you can control the GAIN of that amp relative to the weaker amp. This is TRUE bi-amplifcation. No other set-up will allow you to benefit from bi-amplification. There are no shortcuts. What you plan to do is passive bi-amplification. And whether one amp or two, you'd still be at the mercy of the speaker's internal crossover circuit. You are still effectively bi-wiring, using two amps instead of one. Correct. Specialization has its benefits. But specialization in bi-wiring has dubious benefits other than effectively increasing cable girth and thus, reducing resistive impedance. Not all speaker makers, high enders included, believe in the benefits of bi-wring. And not all crossover circuits in speakers, except perhaps the most expensive ones, do a good job at splitting the signals with the least phase shift, harmonic distoriton products, and filtering sufficiency to prevent lobing, peaks and valleys in the audio spectrum. NOPE. Filtering a signal that is already amplified is not as efficient and less problematic as filtering when the signals are still small. That's best done by excellent electronic crossovers at the preamp level sitting before a preamp. You are still bi-wiring. Your two amps are still processing the same full-range input signals. It's actually wasteful. The HF of the speaker throws out the LF from one amp. The LF of the same speaker throws out the HF from the other amp. True bi-amplification requires that EACH amp processes a different set of frquencies and drives the speakers directly precluding phase shifts that ruin imaging. And each amp proccessing fewer freqeuncies has its benefits. Intemodulation distortion is greatly reduced in each amp allowing clearer and more detailed mids and highs. Bear in mind the objectives of Bi-amplification. (1) Get rid of the speaker's internal crossovers for direct drive to the speakers. (2) Use specialization in amplifers. Those sub-satellite combos are prime examples of true bi-amping. The frequencies are filtered by the receiver's preamp section or before the sub's amp. Not at the speaker junction. And specialized amps are used for the lows, like digital amps that are effective for using large current efficiently. Now balancing the two becomes a challenge to ensure seamless integration between subs and sats. Same goes for bi-amping set-ups. Nope, but you're still be bi-wiring. Mids and highs often use just 30% of the available current (and consequently, the power), except during peaks when they can reach twice that like a cymbal clash in an orchestra. It is the lows that eat so much current, often 70% of the available. But that doesn't mean you can use a 30 watt amp for HIs and a 70watt amp for lows when in a BI-Wiring set-up fed with the same full-range signals on both amps. Remember that 70% of the 30watt amp's current is still used to amplify the lows that the speaker will eventually throw out. And 70% of the 70-watt amp used to amplify the lows will appear inordinatetly overpowering relative to the mids and highs coming from the other amp. And for true bi-amping purposes, you should check the GAIN of each amp. The power of each amp is not as important as the GAIN each provide. Using two disparate amps for bi-amplification require about the same GAIN (though power and gain often go together.) Remember that in using a single amp fed with the full range input signal, all the frequencies get the same gain at the same time. Now using two identical amps for true bi-amping will not be a problem. But with two disparate amps, you will need some volume control on BOTH to balance the GAIN between the two. Either that or the electronic crossover device must have an attenuation control for each set of filtered output. (which I think they often do.)
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Post by sandawa on May 3, 2005 15:48:38 GMT 7
makiki sawsaw po.
bi-amping using different amps, both without gains, could be a problem although using the lower powered amp for HF is the logical thing to do. (preamp controls outputs for both.) if your ears don't like what they hear, you may consider option B: using a CDP with fixed and variable outputs.
connect one pair of RCA cable from the fixed CDP line to your preamp (which is connected to power amp A). the CDP's variable line connectors should go straight to power amp B (bypassing the preamp). that would allow you to control the power fed to the left and right LF and HF units. (this asumes that the more powerful amp drives LF speakers and the weaker amp drives the HF speakers.)
also, in my opinion, the ears should decide on the ideal LF/HF balance not the numbers displayed by power meters.
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Post by bogsle on May 3, 2005 23:12:43 GMT 7
Pusa, ang galing nyo lahat! Walang itulak-kabigin sa mga contributors to this thread. Sarap ng discussion pag ganitong complete sharing of ideas. Pero sabi ko na nga ba eh, I should stick to using the single amp na lang muna. When I have the resouces, maybe, just maybe I will try to do the bi-amping. Sandali nga makapag isip ulit ng isa pang topic for discussion..... Thanks to all and best regards.
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Post by sandawa on May 4, 2005 8:32:29 GMT 7
the case you presented is important for those thinking of bi-amping (result of which should be significant sonic improvement). many power amps and preamps sold now lack options notwithstanding the high price tags.
the ideal power amp should have gain controls for left and right channels. the preamp should have at least two pairs of outputs to feed simultaneously two power amps. still, the ideal bi-amping setup uses same brand/model power amps.
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Post by JojoD818 on May 4, 2005 17:34:03 GMT 7
makadagdag lang po ng kaunti mga kapatid... napakahusay ng bi-amping lalung-lalu na kapag mayroon active crossover sapagkat napaka episyente ng magiging takbo ng bawat amp. malaking pagbabago talaga ang mararanasan sa bi-amping ngunit may angking kamahalan lamang talaga ito kung itataguyod subalit marami ang nagsasabi na sulit ang salaping gugugulin dito. kaya bogsle, may sukling kasiyahan ang iyong ibayong pagiipon para sa proyektong ito.
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Post by wanderlust on May 11, 2005 10:44:38 GMT 7
makadagdag lang po ng kaunti mga kapatid... napakahusay ng bi-amping lalung-lalu na kapag mayroon active crossover sapagkat napaka episyente ng magiging takbo ng bawat amp. malaking pagbabago talaga ang mararanasan sa bi-amping ngunit may angking kamahalan lamang talaga ito kung itataguyod subalit marami ang nagsasabi na sulit ang salaping gugugulin dito. kaya bogsle, may sukling kasiyahan ang iyong ibayong pagiipon para sa proyektong ito. Mabuhay ang Pinoy, Mabuhay ang Pilipinas. lang ya, d ka lang pala matututu dito magiging makabayan ka pa ;D can this be done on HT to?
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Post by bogsle on May 29, 2005 20:17:15 GMT 7
Having discussed bi-amping, how or where could we acquire active crossover devices?
What brands or types of active crossovers are available in the market?
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Post by bogsle on May 29, 2005 20:22:23 GMT 7
Here is another good one for discussion:
If I have 2 amplifiers (RB03) which could be both used for bi-amping or can be switched to monoblocks, which would you guys suggest is the best configuration:
1. bi-amping (2 x 70 watts) for each channel, LF and HF.
or
2. a pair of monoblocks (2 x 180 watts) for each speaker.
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