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Post by sandawa on Apr 14, 2005 8:24:43 GMT 7
When analog was all that was available to audio enthusiasts, every turntable owner had a tape deck to back up his vinyl. Newly bought records were immediately recorded to open reel (for the audiophiles and the professionals) or to cassette tape. That allowed the owner to keep his records in best condition playing his vinyl collection only on special occasions. On ordinary days, it was always the tape copy running on his system.
Nowadays, I don't know what the option is for record owners, but surely, quality degradation comes quick in that medium even when using properly calibrated equipment. Vinyl sound, which many of us love to hear, comes from analog tapes, and audio gods like Paravicini and Levinson have pointed out that with some work, open reel's sonic quality easily beats any other advanced medium.
The audio cassette tape, however, is a different story technically. It has limited frequency bandwidth although expensive machines made by Nakamichi was reported back then to be approaching open reel quality. In the early '90s, I shifted from using audio cassette to video cassette as audio recording medium. Video cassette has wider bandwidth, sonic quality is generally superior, and is cheaper and easily accessible compared with chrome or metal audio cassette.
To date, I still own 3 stereo VCRs and about a hundred tapes with 2- to 3-hour music in VHS format, 6 audio cassette players - including 2 Nakamichis - and about 600 cassette tapes only some 100 pre-recorded. I wish I had kept and restored my Dad's old Teac open-reel machine, the first high-end domestic open-reel equipment in Davao in the '60s I was told. I have been playing some of my tapes lately and it occurred to me the quality was not as bad as I imagined. A lot of cassette tapes even sounded better than my old records (gasgas sa gamit).
This thread opens comments, impressions and experiences on this analog medium. Like vinyl, it evokes memories of my '80s and '70s, down to the '60s for the real old-timers. I'm sure there are still some out there still stuck on tapes, including open-reel.
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Post by avphile on Apr 14, 2005 11:14:02 GMT 7
Since I first started in 1980 with my first Technics SL-B2 turntable, I've used tape decks to compile my favourites from LPs. Starting with an old Teac open reel, then to 3-head cassette decks from Sansui, JVC, then Onkyo, dovetailing with my CDs when I started with it. Then, in 87, I started using a Beta Hi-Fi Sanyo Betacord, interminably with my 3-head Sansui cassette. From 95 onwards, when I shifted to VHS, I used a 6-head Hitachi VCR and then a Mitsubishi VCR. Now I am using digital recording on the PC to compile my favourites from CDs, and CD tracks of hybrid SACDs.
I agree that VCRs have a wider bandwidth and can compete with open reels. Even withOUT Dolby NRs, their wider tape width ensured quiter backgrounds. I have to say that it can be unwieldy trying to get to a selection on a 2-hour VHS tape. And if the machine engages the head all the time, expect head wear as well.
If you have to use cassette tapes, I always say use a 3-head cassette deck and Metal tapes. The combo yields a wider bandwidth up to 19khz -3db especially on METAL tapes. Those that I had, with Dolby HX engaged and at lower than MOL, sounded almost indistinguishable from the originals for most pop, jazz, fusion, disco and chamber music, whether LPs or CDs. Not large orchestral classics though, which can really tax the dynamic headroom of the medium and gets congested at really loud levels, resulting in bland and flat sounding highs.
Last word, I've never believed in the hoopla about those Nakamichi tape decks like the Dragon CT. They're overpriced for their performance. Just like these days with their HT gears. The physics of sound capture in cassette is well documented and it reached its height in 3-head dual loop capstan configuration using the more able metal oxide tape formulation. (Those metal tapes using real metal body from TDK cost at lot in those days. They're still playing with no dropouts, a good 10-15 years after I've recorded on them. ) Nothing that Nakamichi can do can improve on the limitations imposed by this physics. Hence, if you look closely on the specs provided by such 3-head recorders like Luxman, Sansui, Teac, JVC, etc, the numbers do not vary much. 20hz-19khz +-3db on metal tapes with 0.075% wow and flutter and 0.03% THD is fairly common among 3-head machines.
Ofcourse nothing beats open reel that can go from 10hz to 50khz bandwidth on ordinary Ampex or Memorex formulation with a 3 1/2 ips speed. Even without NR. My dad always said, and I agreed with him, if analog is superior to digital, it has to be Open Reel, not LPs. Afterall, the masters were made from large format open reels, with their 50khz or more bandwidth.
Beta Hi-Fi was supposed to approach open reel in terms of audio quality. But my experience with the Sanyo Betacord was patchy as I experienced a lot of dropouts. Could be those cheap Sony tapes. Or maybe the deck. When I shifted to VHS Hi-fi with the Hitachi 6-head machine, I had better experience, Only problem was it took so long to get to the selection I wanted when using a 2-hr tape on standard play. (I always use standard speed when recording on VCR.) The incidence of dropouts was also higher with VHS tapes than with metal cassettes as you record more times over the media. I used regular TDK and Maxell brands for VHS and Beta. Maybe their more expensive variety took care of that, but never got a chance to test them.
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Post by sandawa on Apr 14, 2005 11:54:51 GMT 7
i agree with 99% of what you wrote including the Nakamichi hype: quality vis a vis pricing. but then, a Nakamichi is a Nakamichi. like you, i've also been transferring most of my recordings in VHS and cassette tapes to CDRs since four years ago.
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Post by sandawa on Sept 1, 2005 14:17:27 GMT 7
just to update this thread. i guess i was too biased in the past against cassette tape decks even though i owned several, the most expensive of which is a Nak CR-4E bought at roughly P14K used at Manny Lim's Audiolab in Timog back in late '80s. all the others were entry to mid level units of Technics, Akai and Sansui.
in recent months, however, i have increased my cassette deck inventory due to upscale surplus models sold here in Davao from P500 to P800 each. last month, pricing of tape decks went down further to P250 and that pushed me to buy more. that amount is roughly equivalent to airport-QC taxi fare. i also took the initiative to have some defective ones repaired these past few days.
in a nutshell, i now believe high-end cassette decks truly deserve to be classified as hi-fi units, not necessarily the weakest link of the hifi system's chain. what i've heard from Sony's 777es, for instance, is something that's even sweeter than the sound produced by my Nak CR4E. the 777es, of course was TOTL in mid '80s, and originally retailed at par with upscale Naks - roughly 168,000 yen.
the two Akai's i just got the other day were also great players, efficient noise reduction system and programmable search. one thing about these expensive cassette decks, that were never sold here in late '80s to early '90s due to their high price tags, was that you easily distinguish a good tape formulation from bad tape formulation from their sound. Maxell's and TDK's metals are so good, the sound seems to exceed what we normally hear from ordinary CDs.
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Post by avphile on Sept 28, 2005 9:14:34 GMT 7
One thing for sure, tape heads will wear out, apart from the belts and other mechanicals of a tape deck assembly. I wonder if you rehabilitate those surplus decks with exact replacement heads. Based on experience with a my Sansui 3-headed D550M, replacing the heads (record, playback and erase) after 3 years of normal use can do wonders, like night and day.
Also, ONLY 3-head tape decks is worth bothering about.
Are there surplus OPEN REEL decks there? I don't recall seeing one here at the pier.
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Post by sandawa on Oct 7, 2005 17:32:56 GMT 7
i have seen 2 or 3 junk open reel machines here but with rarity of spares, i don't think those units could be revived. even US-based audio enthusiasts find it hard to bring back their real-to-reel machines in fighting shape. the condition of the heads of the decks i bought especially the TOTLs are still great. even with Dolby C or HX buttons pressed, there's hardly any reduction in high frequency unlike the old decks we have back in the '80s. very quiet, indeed, so impressive without sacrificing the highs. you should visit Davao one of these days and hear how these machines sing, quite comparable to VHS hifi's recording quality. the Sony's and the Naks are definitely better than the Akais and a Technics, even a Teac and Sansui 1330 i still have. the new Sony's (all with 3 heads) are remote controlled and have easy-access-to-selections function. i'm currently transferring most of my rare vinyls to tape (then to CD - using Polderbits as editor). your comments on VHS tape shedding off its magnetic particles is accurate in my case, so i'm retaping. after realizing TDK's type 2 (DJ-2 model) tape 90 mnts long is now sold at only P35, i have calibrated all my decks, especially the Sony's and Naks to that formulation. it was comparable to metal cassette in performance, based on my observation. i've bought dozens of this tape model these past weeks. BTW, one way to measure humidity (a big problem in storing vinyls and tapes) in a non-aircon room is to store a VHS tape for several months. if it develops mold, better not keep the vinyl and tapes there, or, install an aircon (mahal na ang kuryente ngayon  .) |
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Lordfoo
Audionut
Listen to be heard.
Posts: 225
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Post by Lordfoo on Oct 7, 2005 23:48:45 GMT 7
I got a Sony Tck333esG Stereo cassette deck from the pier. Later i saw some 555esGs and i guess they are still there.
Please get them... those mother's shouldnt languish in the stores.
;D
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Post by avphile on Oct 17, 2005 16:42:17 GMT 7
i have seen 2 or 3 junk open reel machines here but with rarity of spares, i don't think those units could be revived. even US-based audio enthusiasts find it hard to bring back their real-to-reel machines in fighting shape. Am not at all surprised. You don't have to copy your LPs to tape before copying it into the PC for CD burning. THere are software that do noise reduction and rumble filtering for analog records copied as WAV files in the PC. Just feed the Phono output directly to the soundcard analog stereo input and I'd advise that you sample at 96khz 24-bit if your soundcard can do that or anything higher than redbook CD. I think nero can do that. The files will be hefty, but if you do some processing like equalization and noise filtering, I think that's better when done in the high resolution stage. Then, once satsified, you can decimate to 44.1khz for CD burning. If I recall right the Goldwave software (a net freebie) does excellent noise filterning( also recommened by many net forums). I had some tape compilation copies of my favourite LPs which I did transfer to the PC as wav files. The Goldwave software can sample the noise pattern, rumble and surface noise plus hiss from the tape(with the tape NR off which I prefer even if the tape was recorded with NR ON) and does a near perfect job of transforming a noisy analog copy into a CD copy. With total silence in the quiet passages. You could easily fool someone to thinking it's a CD original. If you copy into WAV diretly from a phono, then you won't get tape hiss and you get a wider bandwidth which on tape, gets restricted to 18khz. |
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Post by sandawa on Oct 17, 2005 17:50:30 GMT 7
i know, but it's more convenient for me to copy thru tape instead of directly from vinyl para maiwasan ang talon for old records and converting only the best copies to MP3. tapes also make good back ups.
i think you should hear upscale tape decks: noise reduction is so efficient, you won't hear tape hiss.
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Post by avphile on Oct 18, 2005 10:08:05 GMT 7
I also don't hear tape hiss from my three headed Onkyo deck with the Dolby C engaged (circa 1997) Only when the NR is turned off for PC capture.
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Post by avphile on Oct 18, 2005 10:20:00 GMT 7
i know, but it's more convenient for me to copy thru tape instead of directly from vinyl para maiwasan ang talon for old records and converting only the best copies to MP3. tapes also make good back ups. Just curious. Won't you also experience the "talon" while copying to tape, if the record was prone to it? Parehas lang di ba? At least when you capture the wav directly from LP, you get a higher bandwidth and save on electricity cost. ;D Just a thought. |
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Post by sandawa on Oct 18, 2005 11:06:30 GMT 7
i admit nakasanayan na lang siguro since i started trasferring to mp3 five years ago. i was using Polderbits as editor from VHS tapes, then, i recorded directly to PC from TT using amp out to the PC's line level input. i have yet to work on the software you mentioned but i'd try it.
back then, parang mas mahirap sa akin to work using the PC to control the recording compared with using tape deck when problems on accumulating dirt on stylus, or skips, occur. i'm happy with the results using tape though compared with my early recording using directly from TT to PC.
based on what i hear, some work i did using the tapes were even better than some CD recordings, especially those released in late '80s.
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Post by avphile on Oct 18, 2005 13:18:47 GMT 7
i admit back then, parang mas mahirap sa akin to work using the PC to control the recording compared with using tape deck when problems on accumulating dirt on stylus, or skips, occur. i'm happy with the results using tape though compared with my early recording using directly from TT to PC. I suppose when you said "control" you meant adjusting the recording levels from the tape deck, right? Well, you won't really need to do any controls when recording to the PC. You can modify the levels and equalize or manipulate the file later. Actually, if you do some prudent equalization, DC offset correction and even normalization or maxing the dynamic range in highly compressed recordings, you can have a PC wav file that sounds superior to the original. And when you have a wav file recorded directly from LPs, filtering out the surface noise can do wonders to the result, sometimes better than their CD counterparts. Some mid-bass detailing may be lost, but that's often the price of getting a more balanced presentation and airier highs. You may want to consider using the phono stage output rather than the amp's Pre-out level which may already have some gain that could potentially overdrive the soundcard so you could get distorted wav files. Ofcourse you can always use the recording level slider for this. But I prefer less recording intervention at the start. |
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Post by sandawa on Oct 18, 2005 14:08:08 GMT 7
I suppose when you said "control" you meant adjusting the recording levels from the tape deck, right? Well, you won't really need to do any controls when recording to the PC. You can modify the levels and equalize or manipulate the file later... no, it was a bit difficult for me to record direct from the TT to PC (thru the amp) when the usual tracking problems occur, compared with using the tape deck record from the TT. from tape deck to PC is a breeze. i didn't know the PC soundcard has a phono preamp where i can connect my TT directly. as far as i know the card's inputs are the usual line level (compatible with the amp's outs but not with the phono outs) and an input for microphone. where did you buy your PC card and how much? |
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Post by avphile on Oct 19, 2005 9:24:20 GMT 7
i didn't know the PC soundcard has a phono preamp where i can connect my TT directly. as far as i know the card's inputs are the usual line level (compatible with the amp's outs but not with the phono outs) and an input for microphone. where did you buy your PC card and how much? My soundcard is just a Creative Audigy LS. Silly me, my apologies, I failed to mention that this connection is possible only with separate Phono Preamp units connected to the soundcard line in. The levels are said to be a few millivolts lower than with the amp's tape monitor loop or pre-out. I haven't done this myself as most of my LPs have been disposed long before I got my PC. And as I said in my earlier post, I transfered most of my metal cassette tape recording of LPs to wav files. But if I had to do what you are doing, I'd go direct LP to PC, via a separate phono preamp and use 96/24 sampling. But that's just me ofcourse. Hope this clarifies things. And if i got you right, you're just interested in coverting these copies to MP3, so I guess what you are doing is just fine. |
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Post by sandawa on Oct 19, 2005 9:50:53 GMT 7
as i've said, transferring from the tape to mp3 - like what you actually did - is a breeze. a bit difficult for me from the TT direct to mp3 (thru the amp). i even tried recording from TT to tape and mp3 simultaneously (in series) and with viny'ls limitations, it was not easy.
i've written an article about this for Men's Zone magazine sometime in 1990 or 1989, when i was just starting to transfer vinyl music to mp3. i still use the same process until now but i can probably find ways to adjust to a better transferring system once i have the time to get away from my online commitments. thanks anyway, i apppreciate our exchanges.
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Post by avphile on Oct 19, 2005 10:15:14 GMT 7
i apppreciate our exchanges. Same here, happy recording. |
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Post by sandawa on Nov 19, 2005 15:21:58 GMT 7
just replaced a belt in one of my latest tape deck acquisitions- a TEAC Esoteric V-9000, top of the line in late '80s. it's now working very well and truly worthy of being a TEAC TOTL based on performance and in looks. it's appearance, gold-toned with flip down additional controls at the bottom, is quite similar to my Accuphase E-302 amplifier. i have been buying a lot of tape decks recently simply because i see upscale models being sold at only P250 here (as-is) and still no takers. this TEAC model for instance is still listed at US eBay at prices ranging from $200 to $300. will try to repair a huge Pioneer CT-920 tonight, which is also a treasured item among collectors at Audio Karma. in the meantime, here are photos of my TEAC V-9000:  the V-9000 with the bottom controls covered.  the hidden controls uncovered.  the entire unit in nude. |
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Post by sandawa on Nov 23, 2005 14:53:46 GMT 7
can't get enough of the TEAC V9000. it has the smooth, high-end sound of my TOTL Sonys and Naks but with a handsomer look and a comparative edge in all around performance. this deck makes old tapes sound new. it also allows me to compare how my old turntables perform vis-a-vis my current gear. my Technics SL-10 linear tracker was definitely quieter, better performer, compared with SL-1200, Thorens 124 and 320 and the old Duals. the Thorens 124 and Dual 1219 are rim drives and expectedly with rumbling sound when the tapes recorded on these TTs are played loud. of course, outside of the TT motor - a major factor in such assessment is the quality of cartridge used. anyway, i scoured the warehouses today and what do you know, i just found a black TEAC R9000, an auito reverse version of the V9000 at P250 as-is condition, half of the usual tape deck price. i had cleaned the tires/rubber bushings and replaced one belt and it now works fine. made some adjustments in azimuth (a must for all vintage tape deck acquisitions). currently playing is a 17-year old live tape of Ronnie Scott in his jazz club in Soho, London and on the waiting line are home-made tapes of Jackson Browne and Dire Straits i recorded in 1984 during my lonely schooling days in Tokyo and Osaka. here's a photo of my "new" black TEAC R9000 on top of a Pioneer T-818:  |
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Post by sandawa on Nov 28, 2005 17:30:05 GMT 7
just posting a restored monster Pioneer CT-920 (equivalent to CTF-950) cassette deck produced sometime in early '80s. i failed to repair it since the innards were too complicated - motors and rubber belts were covered - so i brought it to a technician and just got it today. frequency bandwidth is relatively limited, i.e., high doesn't get as high as vinyl, low isn't low enough, and tape hiss could be heard even with the Dolby B switch is on. the early '80s upscale Sonys and Naks are definitely better performers. it simply pales in comparison with '90s decks such as those of Teac and Pioneer and late model Sonys with efficient noise reduction systems. i now appreciate better Dolby C, HX-Pro, and dbx, which i have taken for granted in the past since i've been lately using machines with these features - comparable with good sounding vinyl and CDPs. anyway, it's a looker and a good collectors' item:    |
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